EMB Blog: 2024 Camps and Preseason

[TEW]

22 hours ago, eggs said:

Although if Rodgers plays a lot this year and we don’t re-sign him, we may get a decent comp pick if he signs as a starter with someone else next year and Ringo and Ricks could start in 2025. 
 

CB factory. 

With Slay and Bradburry coming off the books, and Ringo signed for 3 more years and Mitchell 5 on rookie deals, we could also re-sign Rodgers and have a great quarter of young corners. Especially with DeJean able to play some safety and Rodgers being versatile between the boundary and slot.

Either way, Howie did a remarkable job of overhauling the CB position and setting the team up with lots of young, high upside options. Even if 1 or 2 guys don’t work out, we should still have at least 2 good young corners as starters for the next 7+ years.

[Iggles_Phan]

4 minutes ago, TEW said:

With Slay and Bradburry coming off the books, and Ringo signed for 3 more years and Mitchell 5 on rookie deals, we could also re-sign Rodgers and have a great quarter of young corners. Especially with DeJean able to play some safety and Rodgers being versatile between the boundary and slot.

Either way, Howie did a remarkable job of overhauling the CB position and setting the team up with lots of young, high upside options. Even if 1 or 2 guys don’t work out, we should still have at least 2 good young corners as starters for the next 7+ years.

or we could have nothing.   I look forward to seeing them on the field.  

 

As of right now, Howie's track record at adding young, high upside CB options that actually pans out is about as successful as his hit rate on young, high upside WRs, but actually worse, I'd say.  At WR, he at least got it right with Smith.   I'm still waiting on the hit at the CB position.  This team hasn't hit on a CB in the draft on a young, high upside CB since 2002.  

[TEW]

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

or we could have nothing.   I look forward to seeing them on the field.  

 

As of right now, Howie's track record at adding young, high upside CB options that actually pans out is about as successful as his hit rate on young, high upside WRs, but actually worse, I'd say.  At WR, he at least got it right with Smith.   I'm still waiting on the hit at the CB position.  This team hasn't hit on a CB in the draft on a young, high upside CB since 2002.  

Who was the last first round corner we’ve drafted? Lito?

[BigEFly]

12 minutes ago, TEW said:

With Slay and Bradburry coming off the books, and Ringo signed for 3 more years and Mitchell 5 on rookie deals, we could also re-sign Rodgers and have a great quarter of young corners. Especially with DeJean able to play some safety and Rodgers being versatile between the boundary and slot.

Either way, Howie did a remarkable job of overhauling the CB position and setting the team up with lots of young, high upside options. Even if 1 or 2 guys don’t work out, we should still have at least 2 good young corners as starters for the next 7+ years.

Hold on.  Ringo slipped for a reason.  Rodgers is being way over credited.  His play wasn’t any better than McPhearson, he is not a slot and 5’9” and 170 as an outside CB can be so exploited in the NFL.  He’s the Green Goblin 2.0 yet even smaller.  Mitchell and DeJean haven’t played a down in the NFL.   Howie has addressed the secondary but whether successfully is a question.   

I have high hopes for the possibilities but realize not all aspirations will be achieved.  I am not sure Rodgers, king of the pajama rallies, makes the final roster.  At this point, he reminds me of Booker, the super light RB that wowed in OTAs with his flashes but when the pads went on he showed he could be tipped over by a feather.  I am just waiting for AJ Brown to truck him in TC.

[Iggles_Phan]

Just now, TEW said:

Who was the last first round corner we’ve drafted? Lito?

Correct.   And that's the defense for the failures at that position.   The 2nd round pick that year was pretty good too.   And, this team hasn't done a great job in identifying young CBs to add via free agency or trades, either.  There's a lot of uncertainty.  So, good news is they haven't spent the draft resources at CB and failed like they did at WR.   The bad news is that we don't have any track record to go by to give confidence.  I want Mitchell and Dejean to work out beautifully.  They are two guys I wanted to add via the draft.   And I am pleased with where the team is now.   BUT, I can't project what the roster will look like a year from now because of the success of Mitchell, Ringo and Rodgers... with Dejean moving to S because of the lack of track record of these selections from the past.

 

Ringo was a 3rd round pick, and we have seen this team miss with 3rd round and even 2nd round picks at CB in the past.   So, penciling him in as a future starter is still a lot more about wishcasting than forecasting.  We'll see what he does this year.   Rodgers fits in the mold of trying to bring in a young cast off from another team, much in the same way that Howie targeted Ronald Darby.  That move didn't exactly work out long term either.   So, you'll have to forgive the skepticism.   Howie made some moves that we HOPE will work out.  But, we had hopes for Sydney Jones, Rasul Douglas and Ronald Darby too.   

 

Time will tell.  But, there's no need to force things yet.   It's time to sit back and watch them develop... or not.  

[Iggles_Phan]

1 minute ago, BigEFly said:

Hold on.  Ringo slipped for a reason.  Rodgers is being way over credited.  His play wasn’t any better than McPhearson, he is not a slot and 5’9” and 170 as an outside CB can be so exploited in the NFL.  He’s the Green Goblin 2.0 yet even smaller.  Mitchell and DeJean haven’t played a down in the NFL.   Howie has addressed the secondary but whether successfully is a question.   

I have high hopes for the possibilities but realize not all aspirations will be achieved.  I am not sure Rodgers, king of the pajama rallies, makes the final roster.  At this point, he reminds me of Booker, the super light RB that wowed in OTAs with his flashes but when the pads went on he showed he could be tipped over by a feather.  I am just waiting for AJ Brown to truck him in TC.

There are a lot of carts being placed before the horses right now with regard to the CB position.

[McMVP]

18 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

There are a lot of carts being placed before the horses right now with regard to the CB position.

I agree with this, but we do at least have reason for optimism.  I look at it from more of an overall secondary point of view than just the CB position.  Adding CJGJ back is a big plus.  And I love the versatility potential of DeJean.  He may bust, but I think his bust potential is low.

[TEW]

18 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Hold on.  Ringo slipped for a reason.  Rodgers is being way over credited.  His play wasn’t any better than McPhearson, he is not a slot and 5’9” and 170 as an outside CB can be so exploited in the NFL.  He’s the Green Goblin 2.0 yet even smaller.  Mitchell and DeJean haven’t played a down in the NFL.   Howie has addressed the secondary but whether successfully is a question.   

I have high hopes for the possibilities but realize not all aspirations will be achieved.  I am not sure Rodgers, king of the pajama rallies, makes the final roster.  At this point, he reminds me of Booker, the super light RB that wowed in OTAs with his flashes but when the pads went on he showed he could be tipped over by a feather.  I am just waiting for AJ Brown to truck him in TC.

Who said anything about them being "successful.” I said we have "options” and "should” have 2 good young corners, based on a reasonable projection of half failing (expected value of 3rd for Ringo, 1st for Mitchell and high 2nd for DeJean is over 1 starter, plus Rodgers and the other young guys gets you to about 2).

[Iggles_Phan]

14 minutes ago, McMVP said:

I agree with this, but we do at least have reason for optimism.  I look at it from more of an overall secondary point of view than just the CB position.  Adding CJGJ back is a big plus.  And I love the versatility potential of DeJean.  He may bust, but I think his bust potential is low.

I think we have equally strong reason to be skeptical, or at least guarded in our optimism.   We were optimistic for Jones, Douglas and Darby as well.  Put them together and we got a whole lotta notta.  We got more from Jalen Mills than we did those 3 combined.  So... in regards to the secondary, I'm in wait and see mode.  I like the moves, but I've liked some moves in the past that bombed out too.

[Iggles_Phan]

10 minutes ago, TEW said:

Who said anything about them being "successful.” I said we have "options” and "should” have 2 good young corners, based on a reasonable projection of half failing (expected value of 3rd for Ringo, 1st for Mitchell and high 2nd for DeJean is over 1 starter, plus Rodgers and the other young guys gets you to about 2).

You did when you said that we should have at least 2 good young starters for the next 7+ years.   That's what success would be defined to be, no?  

[Alphagrand]

Daniel Jeremiah putting out a list of 5 Teams To Watch this season.  I'm tempted to go with the Titans over all of these teams, but a lot of that depends on Levis, whom I'm pretty hesitant to bank on.  Their roster is improved and I think the Colts and Jags are headed in the wrong direction:

 

Bengals -- sure, if Burrow stays healthy they'll be better .... but I don't think they'll ever be 3 points away from a Super Bowl win again.

Bears -- they might actually slip slightly.  It was almost unbelievable they won 7 games last season with that roster.  I could see 6-11 for them.

Commanders -- Jayden Daniels will be a pain to play against, but I think it's a long road back from the Daniel Snyder era.

Chargers -- DJ works for them, but I do believe there will be short term gain with Harbaugh.  He'll be a long term pain, though.  Not a believer.

Cardinals -- Gannon might be a better head coach than DC; time will tell.  Kyler Murray is strictly "show me, don't tell me" in my books, though.  Not a believer.

 

 

[Mike030270]

41 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Correct.   And that's the defense for the failures at that position.   The 2nd round pick that year was pretty good too.   And, this team hasn't done a great job in identifying young CBs to add via free agency or trades, either.  There's a lot of uncertainty.  So, good news is they haven't spent the draft resources at CB and failed like they did at WR.   The bad news is that we don't have any track record to go by to give confidence.  I want Mitchell and Dejean to work out beautifully.  They are two guys I wanted to add via the draft.   And I am pleased with where the team is now.   BUT, I can't project what the roster will look like a year from now because of the success of Mitchell, Ringo and Rodgers... with Dejean moving to S because of the lack of track record of these selections from the past.

 

Ringo was a 3rd round pick, and we have seen this team miss with 3rd round and even 2nd round picks at CB in the past.   So, penciling him in as a future starter is still a lot more about wishcasting than forecasting.  We'll see what he does this year.   Rodgers fits in the mold of trying to bring in a young cast off from another team, much in the same way that Howie targeted Ronald Darby.  That move didn't exactly work out long term either.   So, you'll have to forgive the skepticism.   Howie made some moves that we HOPE will work out.  But, we had hopes for Sydney Jones, Rasul Douglas and Ronald Darby too.   

 

Time will tell.  But, there's no need to force things yet.   It's time to sit back and watch them develop... or not.  

Somehow they'll say Jones wasn't a Howie pick

[TEW]

28 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Correct.   And that's the defense for the failures at that position.   The 2nd round pick that year was pretty good too.   And, this team hasn't done a great job in identifying young CBs to add via free agency or trades, either.  There's a lot of uncertainty.  So, good news is they haven't spent the draft resources at CB and failed like they did at WR.   The bad news is that we don't have any track record to go by to give confidence.  I want Mitchell and Dejean to work out beautifully.  They are two guys I wanted to add via the draft.   And I am pleased with where the team is now.   BUT, I can't project what the roster will look like a year from now because of the success of Mitchell, Ringo and Rodgers... with Dejean moving to S because of the lack of track record of these selections from the past.

 

Ringo was a 3rd round pick, and we have seen this team miss with 3rd round and even 2nd round picks at CB in the past.   So, penciling him in as a future starter is still a lot more about wishcasting than forecasting.  We'll see what he does this year.   Rodgers fits in the mold of trying to bring in a young cast off from another team, much in the same way that Howie targeted Ronald Darby.  That move didn't exactly work out long term either.   So, you'll have to forgive the skepticism.   Howie made some moves that we HOPE will work out.  But, we had hopes for Sydney Jones, Rasul Douglas and Ronald Darby too.   

 

Time will tell.  But, there's no need to force things yet.   It's time to sit back and watch them develop... or not.  

We haven’t done a good job at identifying corners in FA and trades? Id say it’s been more of mixed bag than bad. Slay has been pretty darn good. Samuel was pretty darn good. Bradberry had a good season for us. Robinson and Darby helped us win a Super Bowl.

The bigger issue is that we have used a short term strategy, for the most part, so there has been more variance. We used a few second day picks, and they haven’t worked out, but it’s not like we were flooding the position with draft picks.

No one is penciling anyone in. Again, "options.” Howie put the team in a position with a lot of young guys with talent. Yes, they could all bust. They just as easily could all be stars. A reasonable projection is we end up with a couple keepers out of 4 guys.

Ringo is boom or bust. Tons of physical talent, extremely young, but raw. He looked pretty good last year given that. He has the pedigree. Is he a sure thing? No. But sure things don’t exist in the NFL. I like his chances.

Rodgers wasn’t a cast off because he couldn’t play. He had a gambling issue. Nothing to do with his on field play, which was actually quite good for the Colts.

Yes, we all "hope” because there is no sure thing in the NFL, but we have a deep group of young guys with legitimate talent. By the math, we *should* end up with a pair of starters.

[TEW]

5 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

You did when you said that we should have at least 2 good young starters for the next 7+ years.   That's what success would be defined to be, no?  

Do you know the difference between "should” and "will” my dude?

[Iggles_Phan]

1 minute ago, TEW said:

Do you know the difference between "should” and "will” my dude?

Yes, I do.  You said they SHOULD be SUCCESSFUL.  

[TEW]

9 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I think we have equally strong reason to be skeptical, or at least guarded in our optimism.   We were optimistic for Jones, Douglas and Darby as well.  Put them together and we got a whole lotta notta.  We got more from Jalen Mills than we did those 3 combined.  So... in regards to the secondary, I'm in wait and see mode.  I like the moves, but I've liked some moves in the past that bombed out too.

Douglas turned into a starter and has 14 INTs over the last 4 years. Thats a great return on a third round pick. We just didn’t give him a chance to start here. That’s on the coaches.

[TEW]

3 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Yes, I do.  You said they SHOULD be SUCCESSFUL.  

SHOULD does not mean "they will be.” Jesus Christ.  

[austinfan]

Ringo, between his measurables and flashing decent play as a 21 year old rookie, provides something to be excited about. We're not talking a 25 year old waiver wire former 3rd rd pick who flashed for a week in TC (the usual suspects that get fluffed by the media). No sure thing, but a lot to work with.

 

Mitchell and DeJean have about as good of draft credentials as any CB we've drafted since Lito and Brown.

[Iggles_Phan]

Just now, TEW said:

Douglas turned into a starter and has 14 INTs over the last 4 years. Thats a great return on a third round pick. We just didn’t give him a chance to start here. That’s on the coaches.

Nah.  It's on the GM to find the players that fit what the coaches do, just as much as it is on the coaches to make the players they are given work.   It's a two way street.  

Personally, I don't care at all what players go on to do elsewhere when evaluating draft picks.  Those 14 INTs didn't help this team whatsoever.   Equally, I don't give credit for guys like Jordan Poyer either.   If they don't contribute here, they are still a waste of resources.   There has been a lack of good communication between the front office/scouting department and coaches before.   That's on BOTH ends, not just the coaches.

[Iggles_Phan]

1 minute ago, TEW said:

SHOULD does not mean "they will be.” Jesus Christ.  

Of course not.   You asked, "who said anything about being successful"?  And the answer to that is, you.  You are projecting success based on your assessment of what should happen.    Stop playing semantics.   You are extremely optimistic for the position.   Just own it.

[Iggles_Phan]

10 minutes ago, TEW said:

We haven’t done a good job at identifying corners in FA and trades? Id say it’s been more of mixed bag than bad. Slay has been pretty darn good. Samuel was pretty darn good. Bradberry had a good season for us. Robinson and Darby helped us win a Super Bowl.

The bigger issue is that we have used a short term strategy, for the most part, so there has been more variance. We used a few second day picks, and they haven’t worked out, but it’s not like we were flooding the position with draft picks.

No one is penciling anyone in. Again, "options.” Howie put the team in a position with a lot of young guys with talent. Yes, they could all bust. They just as easily could all be stars. A reasonable projection is we end up with a couple keepers out of 4 guys.

Ringo is boom or bust. Tons of physical talent, extremely young, but raw. He looked pretty good last year given that. He has the pedigree. Is he a sure thing? No. But sure things don’t exist in the NFL. I like his chances.

Rodgers wasn’t a cast off because he couldn’t play. He had a gambling issue. Nothing to do with his on field play, which was actually quite good for the Colts.

Yes, we all "hope” because there is no sure thing in the NFL, but we have a deep group of young guys with legitimate talent. By the math, we *should* end up with a pair of starters.

I said YOUNG, as in the type that is an answer for the position for 7+ years, as you described in your assessment of where this team will be.  

Slay, Samuel, Bradberry, Robinson, Darby... combined those 5 players gave us about 7 years of good play.   Not exactly setting the team up for the future, as you'd laid out for our current group.

As for helping us win a Super Bowl... yes, Robinson did... as a washed up 30 year old on a one year deal.  (and was gone the following offseason) Darby was on the field.  Not sure how much he actually contributed though, especially given that the secondary surrendered 500+ yards passing in that game.   I think he was more or less going along for the ride.

 

By the math... 50% of 1st round picks fail.   By the math.... more than 50% of 2nd round picks fail.   By the math... more than that fail of 3rd round picks.   By the math... the odds are more that we'll end up with only 1 starter.  The odds for the second starter are longer than 50-50.  

[TEW]

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Of course not.   You asked, "who said anything about being successful"?  And the answer to that is, you.  You are projecting success based on your assessment of what should happen.    Stop playing semantics.   You are extremely optimistic for the position.   Just own it.

 

Stop playing semantics? This is literally semantics. It’s you not understanding the English language.

When someone says "should” that does not mean that person is saying they will be.

It is probability, not certainty.

You took "should be” and interpreted it as "will be”, and then went on a multi paragraph, multi post diatribe about it.  

[WentzFan11]

6 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Nah.  It's on the GM to find the players that fit what the coaches do, just as much as it is on the coaches to make the players they are given work.   It's a two way street.  

Personally, I don't care at all what players go on to do elsewhere when evaluating draft picks.  Those 14 INTs didn't help this team whatsoever.   Equally, I don't give credit for guys like Jordan Poyer either.   If they don't contribute here, they are still a waste of resources.   There has been a lack of good communication between the front office/scouting department and coaches before.   That's on BOTH ends, not just the coaches.

I think that shows our scouting department is doing their job when they find quality NFL players. Maybe it’s not 100% on the coaches, but you’d expect them to make it work. 

[FranklinFldEBUpper]

59 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

But, we had hopes for Sydney Jones, Rasul Douglas and Ronald Darby too.  

Rasul Douglas was a good pick, especially in the third round. Cutting him and getting nothing in return is where the problem is.

[Iggles_Phan]

Just now, TEW said:

 

Stop playing semantics? This is literally semantics. It’s you not understanding the English language.

When someone says "should” that does not mean that person is saying they will be.

It is probability, not certainty.

You took "should be” and interpreted it as "will be”, and then went on a multi paragraph, multi post diatribe about it.  

I did not.  You tried to hide 'success' behind 'should'.  You are describing success at the CB position as the likely outcome.   And when someone pressed you, you said that you didn't say anything about success.  Because you qualified it with should.   Ok.   

 

I didn't interpret it at all.  I shared why I am not as optimistic for the level of success you are projecting (notice, not saying "WILL" happen).  I am far more skeptical regarding success for the long term at the position.   We'll see.  I hope I am wrong and that you are also wrong and that we end up with 3 starters and need to flip one to fill in the gigantic hole that remains at LB.