Round 2 (#53): Eagles select Jalen Hurts (Oklahoma QB)

[EazyEaglez]

18 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Yeah, if Carson plays well and stays healthy, there is no issue and we can all call Hurts a wasted pick.

The other explanations don't make sense:

1) Back-up value - yes the back-up QB is important, but the reality is that if Hurts is any good, he will only be an effective back up in 2021 and 2022. Little chance of him being more effective than a Vet as a rookie and after 2022 we really need to either trade him or keep him. If he's good there is no way he is agreeing to continue to play back-up on a reasonable contract.

2) Gadget player - they may use him in certain packages. I highly doubt it will make the Eagles offense that much more effective. It didn't really work with Vick, who was a ludicrous athlete. 

Hurts is absolutely a Wentz insurance plan. Did they need to do it? Was it the right time? Possibly not, but it is what it is.

I guess the real issue to me is that this kid from everything I have heard and read isn’t ready to play quarterback in the NFL. So would he have come into that playoff game and won it last season? Nope. So there lies the problem. Why make the pick for someone who really can’t help even if Carson does go down?

[EazyEaglez]

12 hours ago, dawkins4prez said:

That's exactly what I said,  exactly.  High end backups , when you can get them, cost $7-$9 m /yr.  Dalton was only available because he got released late. He will easily get a $10-14m contract next year as a bridge Qb for some rookie.  Over 4 years that's $30-$35m.  Hurts will cost $6m over the same span.  He will also spend the entirety of that time learning our offense and practicing with our team.  It's one less headache.

 

Winston got $1m because he is terrible.  He will be out the league in 2-3 years.  he also doesn't have the locker room make up you want from your backup.

Both of these players right now are better than Hurts. Both are better than McCown last season and Sudfeld. Bottom line Hurts at this moment does not make their backup situation better. He makes it worse. 

[ManchesterEagle]

5 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

I guess the real issue to me is that this kid from everything I have heard and read isn’t ready to play quarterback in the NFL. So would he have come into that playoff game and won it last season? Nope. So there lies the problem. Why make the pick for someone who really can’t help even if Carson does go down?

Because in my view that’s not what why he was drafted.

There are plenty of backup quarterbacks across the league who are capable of winning games if a starter goes down.

Heck with the Eagles in the last 20 years Detmer/Feeley, Garcia, Vick and obviously Foles have all had substantial success in that role.

There are plenty of QBs who aren’t franchise guys who can be really effective back-ups. Spending a second round pick on one who will likely only fill that role for 2 years is just not a good use of resources.

[Infam]

3 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Because in my view that’s not what why he was drafted.

There are plenty of backup quarterbacks across the league who are capable of winning games if a starter goes down.

Plenty. Yeah I don't know about that. Pricy is more like it.

3 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Heck with the Eagles in the last 20 years Detmer/Feeley, Garcia, Vick and obviously Foles have all had substantial success in that role.

Foles ain't gonna happen again.

3 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

There are plenty of QBs who aren’t franchise guys who can be really effective back-ups. Spending a second round pick on one who will likely only fill that role for 2 years is just not a good use of resources.

If he only fills that role for 2 years, means he has been really good. So we got play out of him and most likely could get at least a second back. Pretty good use of resources.

[ManchesterEagle]

55 minutes ago, Infam said:

Plenty. Yeah I don't know about that. Pricy is more like it.

Foles ain't gonna happen again.

If he only fills that role for 2 years, means he has been really good. So we got play out of him and most likely could get at least a second back. Pretty good use of resources.

Pricy? Like 3 million guaranteed for Dalton?

Foles ain’t going to happen again? What does that even mean? Plenty of backup QBs have come in and gone on a run.

What if Wentz stays healthy, which he should? Hurts isn’t going to want to stay as a backup and we most likely won’t get anything meaningful for him if he hasn’t shown what he can do.

And I’m just not buying this use a second rounder on a guy in the hope he can get us another one in 4 years.

[dawkins4prez]

7 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Is that all he got? That surprises me a bit. I mean I know he's a flawed QB but dam he can go out there and win games. He's going to throw for a lot of yards, TDs and INTs but I would have thought he would have gotten more than $1M + incentives. 

I thought he had a solid  20-30% chance of not getting any offers at all.  You want stability out of your backup, a guy who won't make mistakes.  Either because they are a vet who knows how to protect the football or a scrambler who can run drives without putting the ball in the air much.   I do not think he will make it as a high end backup and will be out of league soon.

[dawkins4prez]

9 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Pricy? Like 3 million guaranteed for Dalton?

Foles ain’t going to happen again? What does that even mean? Plenty of backup QBs have come in and gone on a run.

What if Wentz stays healthy, which he should? Hurts isn’t going to want to stay as a backup and we most likely won’t get anything meaningful for him if he hasn’t shown what he can do.

And I’m just not buying this use a second rounder on a guy in the hope he can get us another one in 4 years.

Dalton will cost the Pokes $7m.  $3m is just guaranteed part.  They still haven't signed Dak btw which might even be reason he picked them.

[EazyEaglez]

1 hour ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Because in my view that’s not what why he was drafted.

There are plenty of backup quarterbacks across the league who are capable of winning games if a starter goes down.

Heck with the Eagles in the last 20 years Detmer/Feeley, Garcia, Vick and obviously Foles have all had substantial success in that role.

There are plenty of QBs who aren’t franchise guys who can be really effective back-ups. Spending a second round pick on one who will likely only fill that role for 2 years is just not a good use of resources.

I liked when the Eagles referenced AJ Feely as their reasoning for this pick. Feely was a 5th round pick they flipped into a 2nd. On top of that he helped them win games when McNabb went down. They didn’t have to waste a 2nd on Feely. Do people seriously think the Eagles can get a 2nd or better for Hurts? Even if they could does that sound like a good business decision at all? Drafting a 2nd in hopes to get a 2nd down the road. 😂 It’s insulting to even try make that seem like the reason they took this kid. As I mentioned be fore and I will do it again. IF a Hurts plays himself into the value of a first, then he’s no longer expendable. The expendable one becomes the guy with the big contract and injury problems. 

[FastFreddie]

I love Wentz and am grateful for 2017 and have enjoyed watching him show hints of that player since.

 

But my loyalty is to the betterment of the team as a whole. An embarrassment of riches at the QB position is better than dancing around legitimate concerns by failing to be prepared to move on. Being so blindly in love with Carson as to think that it's unwise to invest in the future of the position in parallel just confuses me. He's only 27 and now has knee, back, and concussion histories. Injury and supporting cast excuses can be made, but he has absolutely not been as good as 2017 for any extended period since. It's not so unbelievable to think that he's already peaked, and Hurts was on his own tier during this draft and is a very unique player.

 

I'm probably playing devil's advocate as much as anything with this. But I feel better about the future of the most important position on the team than I did before the draft, and my feelings are what's important to me. 👌🏼

[ManchesterEagle]

44 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

I liked when the Eagles referenced AJ Feely as their reasoning for this pick. Feely was a 5th round pick they flipped into a 2nd. On top of that he helped them win games when McNabb went down. They didn’t have to waste a 2nd on Feely. Do people seriously think the Eagles can get a 2nd or better for Hurts? Even if they could does that sound like a good business decision at all? Drafting a 2nd in hopes to get a 2nd down the road. 😂 It’s insulting to even try make that seem like the reason they took this kid. As I mentioned be fore and I will do it again. IF a Hurts plays himself into the value of a first, then he’s no longer expendable. The expendable one becomes the guy with the big contract and injury problems. 

That's the reality, that's why Wentz is annoyed and that's why the Eagles explanations are all over the place.

It's a big if as you say. If Wentz stays healthy and plays well, then Hurts leaves at some point, but the return is likely limited unless we run into some sort of Bradford style luck.

If Wentz gets hurt, and Hurts has an opportunity, then there is no guarantee that Hurts is any good of course.

But the Eagles are absolutely open to Hurts being their future franchise QB in my opinion and the factors needed to turn Hurts into a tradable piece (Wentz getting hurt/playing badly for a sustained period and Hurts looking really good) are more likely to get Wentz traded than Hurts.

[EazyEaglez]

8 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

That's the reality, that's why Wentz is annoyed and that's why the Eagles explanations are all over the place.

It's a big if as you say. If Wentz stays healthy and plays well, then Hurts leaves at some point, but the return is likely limited unless we run into some sort of Bradford style luck.

If Wentz gets hurt, and Hurts has an opportunity, then there is no guarantee that Hurts is any good of course.

But the Eagles are absolutely open to Hurts being their future franchise QB in my opinion and the factors needed to turn Hurts into a tradable piece (Wentz getting hurt/playing badly for a sustained period and Hurts looking really good) are more likely to get Wentz traded than Hurts.

Exactly. Hurts doesn’t become an asset they can tread without Wentz having some kind of injury or difficulty to put him in that position. The Eagles can’t fool me. They’re hedging their bet on Wentz and the fact they can walk away from Wentz by the end of 2021 if they choose to makes this seem more clear to me. Wentz is on the clock.  

[Nivraga]

21 hours ago, dawkins4prez said:

So I keep thinking about this and you know what, it finally takes sense to me.  First of all, straight up, why are draft picks so important?  Because young players under rookie contracts are needed to manage the salary cap.  So if it's mostly a cost-opportunity issue, then ANY position or role that you are willing to pay $7-$10m for, is absolutely worth a 2nd rd pick.

 

How many games will Jalen Hurts start over the next 4 years?  No mater how much confidence you have in Wentz you have to guestimate that over the next 4 years, his backup will start let's say 8 games.  Two games over here, a 6 game stretch over there.  For that role alone NFL teams wanting a high end option will pay something like $7-$8m/yr that Dallas just gave And7Dalton.  That's $32 m over 4 yrs while Hurts will make $6m.  That's a pretty good defensive starter you can buy with that extra money.

 

Even worse, there is no guarantee you can land a Foles/Dalton year in year out.  The top backups are fringe starters always looking a $10-$14m payday as a spot starter somewhere else.  Year to year there is no guarantee you can buy low on a Nick Foles, you might end up with a 40 yr old washed up like we did last year.  Sometimes the best backups options aren't even good fits for your scheme.

 

Then comes the Taysom Hill package.  I do NOT think the Eagles are really thinking about gadget plays with Hurts even though he will certainly have short yardage and 2 pt conversion plays.  They want to run 2 offenses. Hurts will occasionally run an entire change of pace drive and if you didn't prepare for it they will run another.   Forcing DC's to prepare for Wentz AND Hurts is like asking them to prep for Roethlisberger and Lamar Jackson in the same week.  1 drive a game = almost 2 full games especially when we the to 17 game season which brings his total snaps behind center equal to 10 games or so.

 

So the only mental block you have to get past here is that a backup Qb is only worth a 4th rd pick.  But what if you actually want a good one?  A capable backup for 4 years who is a top 30 Qb in his own right at the bargain price of $6m total contract?

 

 

 

 

You nailed it!!!

I think the mistake a lot of people make - and this applies to most things - is that the reason was any 1 thing. It's a combination of factors but I think what you posted above is the genesis. 

Interestingly - I came here to post Jimmy Garoppolo was the 62nd selection in the 2014 draft. Granted Brady was already 75 then but they had just lost in the AFCC and would win the SB following the 2014 season. This wasn't a Patriots team with life without Brady on their mind. Garoppolo was salary cap management. 

[graysferry]

On 4/30/2020 at 7:24 AM, MR-CYN said:

I remember I'm a fan of the team not a player. ☝️

I'll be remembering all kinds of things long after Wentz is gone next year. 👍

 

Enjoy that 50 mil dead cap then.

I'm a fan of this team, too. That's why I am not a fan of the way Howie is ruining it. 

[MR-CYN]

28 minutes ago, graysferry said:

Enjoy that 50 mil dead cap then.

I'm a fan of this team, too. That's why I am not a fan of the way Howie is ruining it. 

They have an out option at in 2022 for 24 mil.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/philadelphia-eagles/carson-wentz-18950/

 

And if Went'z can't stay healthy what would you propose they do? Pay him 30 mil a year in perpetuity? There's someone ruining the Eagles and his name isn't Howie. If it wasn't for Nick Foles this team hasn't won a playoff game since 2008. Howie brought him back. Don't worry about Lurie's money, you'll be ok. 

[graysferry]

5 minutes ago, MR-CYN said:

They have an out option at in 2022 for 24 mil.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/philadelphia-eagles/carson-wentz-18950/

 

And if Went'z can't stay healthy what would you propose they do? Pay him 30 mil a year in perpetuity? There's someone ruining the Eagles and his name isn't Howie. If it wasn't for Nick Foles this team hasn't won a playoff game since 2008. Howie brought him back. Don't worry about Lurie's money, you'll be ok. 

You said he would be gone next year. If he is gone next year then that would be nearly 60 mil in dead cap. If he is gone in 2 years, then that would be 24.5 in dead cap, and another 15.2 mil dead cap the following year. That's still detrimental to a team so reliant on free agents.

I would rather they not pay Wentz over 100 mil in guaranteed salary if they thought he wouldn't stay healthy. They could've franchise tagged him for a couple seasons and it would've been far less in guaranteed salary. And what if Hurts can't play in the NFL? You're acting like he's a guaranteed stud when he's a project player. 

Also, if it wasn't for Carson Wentz playing at an MVP level in 2017, this team doesn't make the playoffs and win the Super Bowl. There's a reason why Foles in on his 5th team in 6 seasons.

I couldn't care less about Lurie's money, but the NFL has this thing called a salary cap. That means you need to draft young, inexpensive talent to keep salaries under that cap in order to sustain success. I know that's an absurd concept under the Roseman regime, but that's how dynasties are built.

You can be content with Howie since they won a Super Bowl 3 years ago. Good for you. I wish I was so easily impressed, but I was promised that was the new normal. I just didn't realize the new normal was constantly picking up injury prone scraps from other teams, relying on practice squad players, and getting worse each season.

 

[MR-CYN]

3 hours ago, graysferry said:

 

 

You're all over the place here. No need for the pedantic histrionics. It's pretty simple. The Eagles will add talent at the QB position until they're satisfied it's been addressed sufficiently. If Hurts doesn't work out they'll continue to add more. 

[ilikepargo]

It would actually be better for the Eagles if Hurts doesn't work out.  Then it would just be a stupidly wasted 2nd round pick.  If Hurts does work out, then you have a problem with the stability of the team.  At the QB position it is better to have clarity of role.  The starter is the starter.  The backup is the backup.

[FastFreddie]

32 minutes ago, ilikepargo said:

It would actually be better for the Eagles if Hurts doesn't work out.  Then it would just be a stupidly wasted 2nd round pick.  If Hurts does work out, then you have a problem with the stability of the team.  At the QB position it is better to have clarity of role.  The starter is the starter.  The backup is the backup.

Pargo... miss ya, love ya. But... I mean... this is a terrible take. 

[ilikepargo]

21 minutes ago, FastFreddie said:

Pargo... miss ya, love ya. But... I mean... this is a terrible take. 

Love ya back, and really happy to see you posting again.  And yes, the way I put it is over-the-top.  But, as crazy as it sounds, there's a reason that I posted it.

Wentz is signed to be The Guy for the next few years.  And his abilities show that he can be exactly that.  He's among the best in the league.  I believe that, when his contract time comes up, we'll want to re-sign him to continue to lead the Eagles.

But that would mean that Hurts would be just a backup.  And you have to know that he doesn't think being a backup is the career path he wants.  If he's a success, then we have a QB controversy.  Think back to when Foles actually finished the season and won the SB.  The media, the fans, and even within the team all argued over who should lead the team going forward. It was a problem.  In fact, it was a bigger problem than just having a 2nd Round pick go bust.

If Hurts succeeds, what do we do?  Dump Wentz?  That would be a bad idea.  Wentz is among the best in the league.  Could we really trade Hurts for more than the #53 in some future year? I doubt it.  Picking one of the top QBs in the league when he's not looked at as The Successor to the current QB is simply a foolish and short-sighted move.

I don't want Hurts to fail.  I don't.  But I'm still pissed about the pick.  It was stupid.

[FastFreddie]

You can hate the pick all you want. It's a sunk cost now. Turn those lemons into lemonade. And I get the whole "if you have two quarterbacks, you have none" deal. Hell, as you said there were actually people who legitimately wanted to keep Foles over Wentz after 2018... but it was a problem incurred because THE TEAM WON A MOTHER FING SUPER BOWL. But ultimately, it's a good problem to have if Hurts seems to be really freaking good, especially if he's better than Wentz in a couple of years. Because he's six years younger and would be a lot cheaper for the last year or two of his rookie deal.

Then again, it's clear I simply don't think Wentz is ever going to be as good as he flashed in 2017 again. I think his surgically-repaired knee took his mobility down just enough where it can be as much of a liability as an asset, making him more of a very good but not great QB. His clock hasn't adjusted. Makes sense that less bullish on Wentz equals more bullish on the decision to draft Hurts.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

1 hour ago, FastFreddie said:

You can hate the pick all you want. It's a sunk cost now

This is where I'm at with this now. I didn't like the pick at the time, I wasn't thrilled the day after but then I just started accepting it. We can't change it, all we can do is try to see the positives from the pick. 

[FastFreddie]

23 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

This is where I'm at with this now. I didn't like the pick at the time, I wasn't thrilled the day after but then I just started accepting it. We can't change it, all we can do is try to see the positives from the pick. 

Free press. People talking about the Eagles because they drafted the consensus fourth best QB in a so-so QB class. Plus, entertainment value for us. Imagine if Howie took like an offensive lineman or some crap there. BORING. Jalen Hurts? NOT BORING. 

[dawkdaballhawk]

We picked him because his name is Hurts. 

[NOTW]

Apparently Deion Sanders said on the broadcast during the draft, why can't there be competition at other positions but when it's the QB people complain it will affect the player's ego?  Just a thought.

They had Ertz and drafted Goedert for example.  No one saw it as a threat to Ertz, they saw it as adding more talent.

I didn't agree with the pick, I wanted other players in that round.  But I'm trying to grasp their logic about having quality at the QB position and insurance.  Usually, teams get a backup free agent and pay them a lot more than you'd have to pay a rookie.  The move also allows you to develop a guy who could potentially take over if Carson gets injured again or in 3-4 years he takes over as starter.

Not saying I agree with their decision but trying to see where they're coming from.

[NOTW]

Just a guess, but with all the changes to offensive coaches and adding Hurts and speed WRs I think they're trying to put together a much different looking offense with more options, trick plays, RPO, misdirection and not focusing on positions as much as shifting guys in different packages.  Assuming at least 2 WR additions work out, you're adding some decent weapons to go with Ertz, Goedert, Jackson and Sanders.  If - and I mean IF - this all comes together it could create a more creative playbook and give them more options.